the running rev - Latest Comments

Re: biblical stewardship and a concern about electronic giving/tithing

Lynn — Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:19:55 -0000

To respond to your concern about indebtedness. Churches now have a choice to choose electronic giving through Debit Card Only. Ardent Giving Solutions created this method specifically to address the concern of many ministries who oppose members creating debt when giving to the church. Also, the cost of debit card giving is greatly decreased which allows organizations to retain more of the dollars they have been given. You can see more about this in several recent articles published in Church Executive, Your Church Today and Leadership Journal.

Re: A timely and very educational Christmas gift…

Josh Rhone — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:23:44 -0000

I'll wait to buy until I see the price tag. I forgot to mention that it may be appropriate gift for the current or future TSA agent in your life.

Re: A timely and very educational Christmas gift…

Russ Pierson — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:19:12 -0000

Ooh! Gotta get me one! ;-)

Re: Leveraging the power of public opinion: To abort or not to abort? A social experiment…

Josh Rhone — Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:32:32 -0000

I agree that it is sometimes good to hear other people's opinions. However, in a situation such as this I would be much more open to hearing the opinion of family and friends rather than Joe and Jane Everyperson who don't know me.

Also, I wonder whether they are genuinely interested in hearing opinions or whether they are simply interested in creating a "buzz" that allows them to enjoy a few moments in the limelight.

Moreover, as you so aptly indicated it is unlikely that they will receive any unbiased feedback on the issue. On that note, it is interesting to see the disproportionate number that are in favor of them going through with having the baby.

Re: Leveraging the power of public opinion: To abort or not to abort? A social experiment…

S S — Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:24:29 -0000

We all do it all the time. Sometimes it's good to hear other people's opinions on weighty issues. I doubt they will get many unbiased opinions on this issue though.

Re: on wet-shaving

Josh Rhone — Tue, 09 Nov 2010 12:44:30 -0000

Heath,

Just purchased some new shaving soap and after shave from Portland General Store. They make their stuff in small batches and I am told that it is simply wonderful stuff. I'm hoping that these new additions to my shaving kit will help me to continue to enjoy rather than loathe shaving (although I used to be one of those guys that loathed shaving).

Re: on wet-shaving

Heath Mullikin — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 00:16:34 -0000

I too have tried the brush and shaving soap, but still using my Fusion Power. I loathe shaving, but there's something about that brush that makes it tolerable. Still, I'm only going to shave once a week(Saturday night/Sunday morning) unless my wife tells me other wise. If I could grow a sweet beard and keep the Don Johnson stubble I would do that in a heartbeat.

Re: on wet-shaving

t4stywh34t — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 18:18:00 -0000

Glad to hear it :-)

Re: Sex is sin… Sin is sex

Heather Shelley — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:04:58 -0000

Very well put, Josh. Seems the list of Big Sins are an a la carte menu from which we can pick and choose...this one pertains, this one does not...this one's bad, this one's not. Nicely worded, brother.

Re: The denomination’s new clothes: Is our missional language simply a trendy alternative to the church growth rhetoric?

Josh Rhone — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 18:48:31 -0000

Matt,

Are you a member of the Wesleyan Church? A pastor? Onlooker? Have you had some experiences that have made you feel this way? Just looking for some context for the statement that you have made.

Thanks!

Josh

Re: The denomination’s new clothes: Is our missional language simply a trendy alternative to the church growth rhetoric?

Matthew Stone — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:59:09 -0000

I'm afraid I agree with you

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

Josh Rhone — Fri, 14 May 2010 07:01:21 -0000

Once again, thank you for your kind words. I am sorry to hear that the church that you attend did not mention Jesus and that you seem to have endured an experience which has been both troublesome and disconcerting to you.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

Josh Rhone — Fri, 14 May 2010 06:59:46 -0000

anonymous,

Thank you very much for your comment. It is always interesting to hear about one's experiences in church and how it reflects the speculations of the theologians and sociologists who study religious phenomena in society.

One thing I would ask, though, is that from here on out those who would post would pull back the cloak of anonymity and at the very least reveal your name to us. While anonymity at times gives us the freedom to say things that we are hesitant to say- anonymity is unfair in that it allows us at times to be much more disparaging than is warranted. I'm not suggesting that this has been the case with you. This just seemed like an excellent time to address the subject.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

Josh Rhone — Fri, 14 May 2010 06:55:12 -0000

Chuck,

Thanks as always for the comments and reflections. I appreciated studying with you at Houghton and it has been great to see our paths, though somewhat diverged, once again crossing.

I appreciate what you have to say as you are someone who has roots in the Wesleyan Church but have after much thought made the decision to leave the denomination for various reasons.

My hope is that as I continue to post, that throughout the comments and discussion there will be an insightful balance regarding the state of things from the perspective of someone who is part of the denomination as well as someone who is part of the conversation but is somewhat removed from the day-to-day life within the denomination.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

Josh Rhone — Fri, 14 May 2010 06:51:01 -0000

mnphysicist,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I too am an enormous fan of the quadrilateral, although it is somewhat unfair to claim it as Wesley's. The quadrilateral was first referenced in the 1890 essay by William Reed Huntington in which he sought to bring about reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Albert Outler would later take the four-fold approach that had been outlined by Huntington and coin the phrase "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" to explain what a uniquely Wesleyan approach to theological reflection entails.

That said, however, I get the sense that you are approaching this topic as someone who has some friends in the Methodist tradition, which in some ways is incredibly similar to the Wesleyan Church. Yet, in many ways is also quite different. One of the key differences is that the Methodist church sees seminary education as important, in fact it is necessary (in most circumstances) for ordination in the Methodist denomination. Wesleyans, by contrast, are not required to obtain a seminary education. Moreover, not only are Wesleyans not required to attend seminary to be ordained, but one can be ordained through two tracts other than obtaining an appropriate bachelor's degree from a Wesleyan approved college or university. One can be ordained if he or she has attended a Wesleyan approved Bible college OR through what has become known as the FLAME program (more about this to follow in a later post).

Moreover, while my education at Houghton College and my further studies at George Fox Evangelical Seminary have provided me with a healthy understanding of the biblical languages (I have a fairly good reading proficiency in Greek and am working to improve my Hebrew to the same degree) and the cultural landscape in which the stories of the Bible both took place and were recorded- I know from experience that a number of my colleagues do not share that knowledge.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

Ron Amundson — Thu, 13 May 2010 16:59:03 -0000

I'm not Wesleyan, but do like Wesley's quadrilateral. :)

First, I'd say overall, the lay as well as pastorate that I know in the Wesleyan church have not lost the plot, if anything, they seem to uphold scriptural authority to an exceedingly high level... likely much to the chagrin of those who want to embrace Western thought as exclusive, or in the worst case the error of biblioidolatry. Perception wise... its easy to comingle everything and run into the later two errors, but being true to study of the original languages, as well as the culture of the time, including eastern thought can serve to keep things in balance... both of which the Methodist pastors I know have done, both in and after seminary.

Ultmately though, the danger is always there, of focusing on the non-essentials, where as Frank Viola puts it, Jesus becomes a mere footnote, or as others have done, have replaced Him with the Bible.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

t4stywh34t — Thu, 13 May 2010 14:29:58 -0000

Great thoughts. Possibly the most revealing statement you make is: "it is quite likely that I am reading more into these comments than were initially intended". I think you're reading into these comments to the necessary depth. The majority of the comments from the report, to me at least, show that pastors want to treat what are actually symptoms of greater problems, which you've accurately just identified. No pastor would ever say he/she idolizes Scripture, but listen to his/her sermons and put your finger on the pulse of his/her congregation...you'll soon figure out whether or not that's true.

Education is another interesting facet you bring up. Having attended a predominately Methodist seminary, I can tell you a hundred things wrong with requiring a certain degree for ministry. On the other hand, coming from a tradition that traditionally does not highly value education, I can think of a thousand things right with requiring a certain degree for ministry. I am greatly encouraged by the Wesleyans I became friends with during my time at seminary, mainly because I know the classes they attended, the professors who mentored them, and, for the most part, their families who will influence them on the most basic level. I would be a part of 90% of their churches without even thinking. I just can't say the same thing about pastors I've met with limited formal Christian education.

Keep it coming!

EDIT: I meant to say this when I first commented, but just now remembered. I think if every single Wesleyan pastor read Gordon Fee's How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, we'd see some ripples.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

anonymous — Thu, 13 May 2010 14:06:21 -0000

I had never given the subject much thought before, but what you have said makes a great deal of sense. My church has removed religious artwork and has largely removed talk about God, except for Jesus, from our services. A Bible is still prominantly displayed. We don't pledge allegiance to it. But we often talk a lot more about following the Bible than following Christ.

Re: Authority of Scripture: Have we lost the plot?

P. Moore — Thu, 13 May 2010 13:54:41 -0000

AMEN

The church I went to this last week did not mention Jesus. The songs reminded me of top 40 love songs. But we pledged the Bible. It bothered me and I didn't know why until I read your post.

Continue to speak the truth.

And let's refuse to confuse the revelation with what it reveals (great line btw)

Re: God Is Absent

Josh Rhone — Thu, 13 May 2010 10:18:39 -0000

P. Moore,

You should pursue ministry in The Wesleyan Church if you truly believe that this is the denomination in which God has called you to serve. I did not come into The Wesleyan Church as someone who wanted to see change. I appreciate the balance between the sovereignty of God and free will which a distinctly Wesleyan-Arminian theological perspective affords. As someone who loves history, I have a great appreciation for Wesley and the heritage of the denomination that bears his name.

Re: God Is Absent

Josh Rhone — Thu, 13 May 2010 10:13:35 -0000

I would agree with your comments and in fact plan on addressing some of these issues more fully in later posts. For now, I'd like to offer just a brief response to each comment.

In regards to the issue you have raised regarding church death and planting, I wholeheartedly agree with you that TWC has not done a terrific job either with respect to closing or planting churches. There are many churches with poor attendance and equally poor missional effectiveness that might be better served closing their doors. However, while acknowledging this, I have to admit that as someone who believes that numbers are not always the best gauge of church health- it could well be that some of these small churches are healthier than some of the larger churches. One might look at the church that I pastor and think that they are small and that things have run their course. However, we have made some significant inroads into our community. It hasn't been reflected from an attendance standpoint (not to the extent, at least, that some think it should). Yet, we are reaching our community more effectively than some of the larger churches that I have been involved with.

From the church planting side of the equation- I think some strides forward are being made. The West Michigan District of the Wesleyan Church has become a prolific church-planting movement under the leadership of District Superintendent Rev. Mark Gorveatte. My home district, Western PA, is making some attempts to get into the church-planting fray, although recently it still remains true that more churches have been closed than opened.

As to your comment about the "muddled future"- the idea of returning to a truly Wesleyan identity is naive at best. Wesley would never fit in with the denomination that bears his name. His marriage was a wreck. He liked his beer. And he didn't have qualified members running his class meetings. Moreover, as you so aptly noted, returning to a truly Wesleyan identity would mean reuniting with the Church of England and existing as a reforming movement within said church.

Re: God Is Absent

t4stywh34t — Wed, 12 May 2010 19:41:38 -0000

Josh,

As usual, I think your observations are spot on. I appreciate that you looked for the good in the report before jumping straight to the critical (like I did). I guess at this point I'm left with two main critical reflections of the Wesleyan Church based off this report:

1) One area in which I would like to see the Wesleyan Church improve is in the area of church death. Though it pops up every once in a while, on the whole TWC has no idea when to let a building close its doors and completely re-engineer a "core" for re-planting. We tend to view re-planting only in the sense of building bigger buildings for numerically-increasing congregations. I'd like to see someone practically work out strategies for identifying congregations which are in trouble - and I'm not just talking numerically - and then pare them down and "re-plant".

2) One of the reasons I left TWC was because of this muddled future. I have the same problem with Lutherans that I do with Wesleyans :-). Just as Luther never set out to form an autonomous splinter group off the Catholic Church, so Wesley had no intention really to act outside the guise of the Anglican Church. Methodists were Anglicans, not Methodists. I really think that until TWC can come to grips with its historical roots, there isn't really anywhere for them to go. Of course, I suppose in the end the same argument can be made against Anglicans and Catholics, but I think the situation with TWC specifically, not including the Methodists, is a bit different. A denomination formed because of social issues is going to keep running into these issues that we're dealing with now again and again and again, and it's going to have to keep morphing itself to look like other things. When people talk about reclaiming a truly Wesleyan "identity", I wonder what they really think that will entail.

I should've written down what I was going to type first, because I had a couple other points that I've now forgotten. Hopefully I'll remember them...

Re: God Is Absent

P. Moore — Wed, 12 May 2010 16:45:54 -0000

As a college student who is thinking about pursuing ministry in the Wesleyan church it's exciting to hear that there people who are interested in a new Reformation. Much of the discipline is based on the way things were years ago. It's not relevant and the denomination isn't relevant. Change needs to occur.

Re: God Is Absent

Josh Rhone — Wed, 12 May 2010 15:54:13 -0000

Thanks for the kinds words of encouragement. Please stop by again and feel free to join in the conversation!

Re: God Is Absent

A Wesleyan Pastor — Wed, 12 May 2010 15:50:31 -0000

Great and very fair assessment. The Scripture section almost sounds like bible-idolatry. The alcohol commitment needs to go- it is hindering leadership potential. Also agree with you that missional measures aren't what are being proposed. Same old thing. Just a new day.

Wish someone would put you on a denominational committee. You have some great ideas and articulate them well.